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LIPO Information
DemonDate: Friday, 2010-05-28, 11:13 PM | Message # 1
Group: Administrators
Messages: 110
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Are lipos safe?

There is a general misconception that lipos will blow up or catch fire with the slightest abuse. This is very wrong. Earlier versions of lipos, Lithium Ion batteries, had a history of catching fire as you may have heard in the laptop issues a few years back. There was a issue with the Li-on batteries catching fire. As technology changes, it gets better, and better is the Lithium polymer batteries you all know as “lipo”. If someone has a problem with a lipo it is because they do not know how to properly take care of it. While it is rare, lipos can still combust and cause damage.

How do I take care of my Lipo?

When lipos do catch fire, it is almost always because of improper maintenance. The first way to be safe with lipos is to understand why they go bad. The biggest reason is that when they are run below a certain voltage the cells become damaged and may combust during charging. Other times, they simply die out, without combustion because they were run too low. Whenever the cells are damaged, lipos go bad. And lipos have sensitive cells. Another reason is excess draw on the battery. If too much power is being drawn from the battery at one time, it could be very bad. Normal shooting and prolonged full auto should not be a problem with lipos, but if your fuse blows, DO NOT continue to pull the trigger. This causes the motor to draw excessive amounts of power that the battery may not be able to handle. I have seen first had a lipo combust because of this. Lastly, you can damage a lipo while soldering new connectors. An excess of heat from the soldering iron flowing back into the cells can damage the cells. I have also seen this happen before.

Will a lipo wreck my gun? What does my gun need to be “lipo ready”?

In most cases, lipos put no more stress on the gearbox than an 8.4v. What a lipo will destroy is trigger contacts. Lipos have such a powerful current that they will arc over the trigger contacts and cause a build up of carbon and the heat has even melted the plastic around the trigger contacts before. The solution to this is to get a MOSFET. A MOSFET is a switch that diverts the current from your trigger contacts and permanently save them. MOSFETs can be expensive up at over $80 in some cases depending on how many features you want in the MOSFET, and as low as $15-$20. I have an Active Breaking(AB) MOSFET form infected armory and it is more than equipped to handle the abuse from lipos. And for only $25, I cant complain. Next is monitoring your ROF. Depending on your spring rate, and ROF, your sector gear can spin so fast that it will engage your piston before it hits the front of the gear box. This will strip at least your piston in a matter of seconds. A 400fps spring seems to be able to push a spring back fast enough to handle around 25rps and under. Possibly 1-2 more, but you never know, every gearbox is different. With my lipo, I am at 400fps and 27rps. So keep this in mind when looking at lipos and try not to get one that is too powerful. Do your research on how powerful your current motor is and what you estimate your ROF to be. This is the hard part of getting into lipos. Once you figure this out, the rest is fairly easy.


Armory:KWA SR12, KWA M4A1, KWA KP45 Match, JG Aug A3, UTG MK96, UTG TriShot Shotgun, KJW PT99, TSD AKS-74u, Echo 1 Vector Arms AK-74u, and JG Bar 10
 
DemonDate: Friday, 2010-05-28, 11:13 PM | Message # 2
Group: Administrators
Messages: 110
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How do I charge my lipo?

ALWAYS use a balance charger. A balance charger charges each cell individually through the small charging plug. The charging plug is the smaller one and NOT the one that plugs into the gun. When abattery is balance charged, each cells voltage is checked and restored to where it should be. This way, one cell doesn’t die prematurely do to the cells being discharged unbalanced while shooting(not common, but is noticabl slightly over time). So, if you find a charger and it does not say it’s a balancing charger, keep your distance. If it charges through the main connector, keep your distance. Also make sure you lipo is capable of charging you number cells that your lipo has. A 7.4v is 2 cells, 11.1v 3 cells and so on in 3.7v increments.

Which lipo is for me(7.4v or 11.1v)?

Think about your ROF and consider what is a reasonable at your fps. Also consider your motors power. Most guns under 380 fps should not run an 11.1v lipo. No matter what the C rate(will elaborate more on that later), you will most likely have pre-engagement issues. So now that you have figured which voltage your going for, you should consider what “C” rate you should look for. Your “C” rate is your discharge rate. That’s how much current your battery can safely discharge at one time. I’m not an expert on this so if someone could add more to that or fix me that would be great. But, the higher the C rating, the better the trigger response and ROF. People claim 7.4v lipos to be worse than 8.4v NIMH batteries and others claim them to be better than their 9.6v NIMHs. It can be very confusing, but that’s all because of the “C” rating. A 20C 7.4v will be around a 8.4v or less. On the other hand, a 40C 7.4v will be more powerful than a 9.6v in most cases. Same goes with 11.1v. A 12C 11.1v will be considerably less powerful than a 20C 11.1v.

How long do they last?

Lipos last much much longer than NIMH batteries. I’m not sure why, but they just do. I’ve heard accounts from people saying a 11.1v 20C 1100mah batteries lasting a whole 5k round box mag with juice left over. I can’t verify this as most people have never risked running their battery that long. But I wouldn’t doubt that its possible. 7.4v don’t seem to last quite as long as 11.1v, but they still last much longer than normal. I’ve been told by people that own 2000mah 7.4v lipos, that they can get anywhere from 3000-4000 rounds out of it. How long you gun lasts also depends on how much power your motor pulls and how strong your spring is. So a 2000mah battery will last considerably longer at 330fps than at 400fps. There is a reason you don’t see many lipos in high Mah ratings. You don’t need it.

credit goes to G36fanatic of airsoftsociety.com


Armory:KWA SR12, KWA M4A1, KWA KP45 Match, JG Aug A3, UTG MK96, UTG TriShot Shotgun, KJW PT99, TSD AKS-74u, Echo 1 Vector Arms AK-74u, and JG Bar 10
 
DemonDate: Friday, 2010-05-28, 11:13 PM | Message # 3
Group: Administrators
Messages: 110
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Additional:
@ How to take care of Lipos

For instructional purposes only, lets assume a lipo has 6 cells, each cell is like a link in a chain. When the battery discharges to a certain point one of these cells will damage and will not retain a charge or preform as it once did. When one of these links gets to this point it will degrade the entire chain.

There are many tools to help you avoid this situation. Lipo batteries come with smaller connectors, you can plug these connectors into voltage meters which tell you how much charge the entire battery has left, or you can plug a lipo alarm which will make an annoying alarm sound informing you that the battery is close to discharging and is recommended to stop using and recharge.

@ How long do they last?

Theoretically a fully charged NiMH should discharge itself more then 25% if left unattended over one year. A lipo on the other hand should not discharge anywhere close to 2% a year if left unattended.

It's not unheard of for a player to use the same battery without charging it for multiple games. I've had a guy use the same battery every weekend for a month before he needed to recharge.

Recommended things to do before switching over to Lipos:

Upgrade your connections to Deans, there's more connectivity with deans then Tamyia. Ensure the battery end is FEMALE so there's no way to bridge the connection.

Always charge your lipo battery in a lipo safe charging bag, they're designed to contain fires so if something does go wrong the worse thing that can damage your home is a little bit of smoke instead of a huge fire.


Armory:KWA SR12, KWA M4A1, KWA KP45 Match, JG Aug A3, UTG MK96, UTG TriShot Shotgun, KJW PT99, TSD AKS-74u, Echo 1 Vector Arms AK-74u, and JG Bar 10
 
fuzzywuzzyDate: Sunday, 2010-05-30, 9:20 PM | Message # 4
Group: Senior Operator
Messages: 116
Status: Offline
Quote (Demon)
How do I take care of my Lipo?

Quote (Demon)
if your fuse blows, DO NOT continue to pull the trigger. This causes the motor to draw excessive amounts of power that the battery may not be able to handle.

If the fuse blows, the connection is broken and pulling the trigger cannot complete the circuit. Therefore you can't draw power from the battery.

Quote (Demon)
Will a lipo wreck my gun? What does my gun need to be “lipo ready”?

A higher rof overall puts more stress on improperly tuned gearboxes/internals. In most cases gearboxes are not properly tuned (literally all stock guns aren't tuned). But to be on the safe side a 7.4v is comparable to an 8.4v nimh and in some cases a 9.6v.

Quote (Demon)
How do I charge my lipo?

A balance charger is usually the best idea since there are some pretty decent ones out there for the cost of a normal nimh smart charger. However, some people may choose the route of buying a charger that charges through the connectors. Then using an external balancer, the cells can be balanced and charged at the same time as well as setting an auto cut off. Meanwhile the digital external balancer that can read voltages on the field as well.

Quote (Demon)
How long do they last?

Lipos hold a charge much better than a nimh battery and therefore 'last longer'. As a result, the majority of the voltage is drained at the end of it's discharge cycle. On the other hand, a nimh will steadily lose voltage during usage which will decrease it's performance faster.
I'm not sure why G36fanatic said you don't see lipos in hig mah ratings. It's quite easy to get a 5000mah lipo.

Added (2010-05-30, 9:20 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (Demon)
Which lipo is for me(7.4v or 11.1v)?

A 7.4v lipo will work with just about any gun. It can be hard to predict rof unless you've had experience with any motors that you plan on using. Generally most stock guns will yield approximately 15-20 rps on an 11.1 lipo. I can't agree with most guns under 380fps not using an 11.1v lipo because that battery alone isn't going to cycle it fast enough to cause premature engagement. My mp5k is getting around 19-20 rps with an 11.1v lipo, 13:1 gears and a garbage motor. Colin's chrono put it at 220fps tongue I think it's actually closer to 280, else there's some major air leakage since it's running on an m105 spring. But either way, it cycled fine with the lipo both before and after the spring change. Unless you grease your piston tracks with sand there shouldn't be any issues wink

As for "C ratings", it's honestly a worthless, overly used concept in most cases. It can be useful for charge rates for lipos since a 1C charge is capacity(in miliamps)/1000. ie. 3000mah battery charged at 1C is just means 3000/1000 = 3 amps charge rate.
But for the rest C rating alone can't tell you anything about the actual amps that your battery puts out.
To calculate amps you need that battery's capacity. So a 3000mah battery at 10C can give 30amps via the following calculation: (3000miliamps)*(1amp/1000miliamps)*10C = 30amps
In short, capacity/1000)*rating = amps

To understand how misleading C rating alone can be, lets take a look at the following batteries (voltage is irrelivant in this case).
1) 3000mah, 10C. This one puts out 30 amps
2) 900mah, 25C. This one puts out 22.5 amps
You can clearly see why you need to calculate the amps especially if your motor is upgraded. The max output of your battery is measured in amps.

A motor will only draw a maximum number of amps depending on how it's made. Usually that number is unknown and hard to measure but it can be guessed if you have experience with this. Most stock motors max out around 15-20 amps. Upgraded motors can be anywhere from 25-50+ amps. This is why it's essential that you calculate a batteries output in amps when choosing which one to buy.
If a motor can only take 15 amps, then the batteries output in amps more or less doesn't matter past 15amps. At that point you have to up the voltage to increase your overall power to the motor. I like to call it 'forcing volts' into the motor since it won't take anymore amps. The batteries total power delivered is given by volts*amps = watts. For example the following batteries:
1) 8.4v nimh 15amps
2) 9.6v nimh 15amps
3) 7.4v lipo 30 amps
Case 1: Used on a stock motor that will use a max of 15 amps, the 9.6v would give the highest rof because the motor only accepts 15 amps. SO the 9.6v gives 144 watts (9.6v*15amps), the 8.4v gives 126 watts (8.4v*15amps) and the lipo gives the lowest 111 watts (7.4v*15amps). As you can see the lipo's high output is limitted by the motor.
Case 2: Used on an upgraded motor taking 30amps max. The 7.4 lipo would give the highest rof by far, putting out 222 watts compared to the 9.6v which can still only give 144 watts and the 8.4v which only puts out 126 watts.

Since lipos have so many high discharge options (100+amps) it's perfectly alright to buy something with that rating. It most likely will never get discharged at 100 amps, but the potential is there and it' won't hurt your motor either.

The final word is pretty much that lipos and motors are a game of calculations. Some of the statistics you know, some you don't. Generally you won't know how many amps your motor is capable of drawing. The more time you spend buying and testing lipos, the more you will understand which batteries are most appropriate in which cases. I hope that gives some insight as to how the math aspect of this all works out. It's a pretty simple concept once you get the hang of it.

 
XusmcrulesXDate: Saturday, 2010-08-07, 5:14 PM | Message # 5
Group: Noob
Messages: 6
Status: Offline
How does everyone store their Lipo's?

Most airsoft Lipo owners state to store it fully charged always (for example, charge them to full immediately when you get home)

However, most RC hobbyists state storing a fully charged lipo for 3-6 months increases the resistance in the pack and lowers your battery life. They state that a Lipo staored anywhere longer than 3 weeks should be stored at 40% charge.

So what lvl of charge do you guys leave your lipo's at for long term/ short term storage?


If you can't stand behind our troops, how about you stand in front of them?
 
fuzzywuzzyDate: Saturday, 2010-08-07, 11:52 PM | Message # 6
Group: Senior Operator
Messages: 116
Status: Offline
I try not to store them charged. In some cases I have a few that I don't use as much and they usually end up getting stored at a higher capacity.
Typically for my frequently used lipos I use them and then don't charge them until just before I use them again. So that's probably about 50% or less capacity. I haven't charged any of my lipos all summer, but I have used them for testing purposes every few weeks.

I've never really heard of people storing them fully charged.

 
XusmcrulesXDate: Sunday, 2010-08-08, 11:09 AM | Message # 7
Group: Noob
Messages: 6
Status: Offline
if you dont charge them before you store them, doesnt that put your lipo in danger of falling below the required voltage for the cells? thus ruining them?

If you can't stand behind our troops, how about you stand in front of them?
 
fuzzywuzzyDate: Sunday, 2010-08-08, 2:36 PM | Message # 8
Group: Senior Operator
Messages: 116
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No, because lipos (any lithium batteries really) have a far greater ability to hold a charge compared to other types of batteries. They have a very low self discharge rate and therefore it is doubtful that they'll discharge themselves below a safe voltage level.
 
AeleasDate: Tuesday, 2011-05-10, 12:08 PM | Message # 9
Group: Junior Operator
Messages: 21
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Should I be suspicious as to the quality of a $10 battery like this one?
 
ShaneDate: Tuesday, 2011-05-10, 5:24 PM | Message # 10
Group: Noob
Messages: 43
Status: Offline
Quote (Demon)
With my lipo, I am at 400fps and 27rps.

CRAP! That is amazing! That is over 1600 bb's per minute!
Quote (Aeleas)
Should I be suspicious as to the quality of a $10 battery like this one?

If it was a normal battery, as in not lipo, I wouldn't be suspicious. But since it is a lipo battery I think that is way too cheap, but as it may, I am not the expert of any type of battery's here.


Message edited by Shane - Tuesday, 2011-05-10, 5:24 PM
 
DemonDate: Tuesday, 2011-05-10, 6:04 PM | Message # 11
Group: Administrators
Messages: 110
Status: Offline
Actually batteries are really cheap if you dont buy from an airsoft retailer. Tom I havent seen that brand before so you should research it before you buy that but the ones i am getting from hobbyking.com (which mike gets his from) the batteries are $7.50 for a good one plus shipping plus some decent connectors (which are really cheap)

Airsoft retailers overcharge on batteries


Armory:KWA SR12, KWA M4A1, KWA KP45 Match, JG Aug A3, UTG MK96, UTG TriShot Shotgun, KJW PT99, TSD AKS-74u, Echo 1 Vector Arms AK-74u, and JG Bar 10
 
AustinDDate: Tuesday, 2011-05-10, 7:16 PM | Message # 12
Group: Noob
Messages: 14
Status: Offline
hobbypartz.com
great lipos for mad cheap... good chargers too


Loadout
SCR m4sd custom
custom A&K saw
KWJ Co2 m1911a1
 
fuzzywuzzyDate: Tuesday, 2011-05-10, 9:59 PM | Message # 13
Group: Senior Operator
Messages: 116
Status: Offline
Quote (Shane)
CRAP! That is amazing! That is over 1600 bb's per minute!

My aks74u is 400fps and just under 40rps smile And that's with a lower output 11.1v lipo, 18g wiring and tamiya connectors that I haven't gotten around to replacing. All three of which lower the rate of fire tongue It needs a little more work and I haven't had time for it, hence why I don't bring it to games. It's really low on my priority list.

Tom I don't usually try different battery brands if I can't find any reviews on them. Preferably look to rc forums for reviews, wattflyer ect. Hobbypartz and Hobbyking are probably the more popular HK retailers among airsofters.

Personally I've been ordering from Hobbyking lipos because I actually use their xt60 connectors for a few of my guns. The 4mm bullet connectors from hobbypartz I have no use for so they'd literally be trash in my parts box lol. Plus I constantly buy a multiple meters worth of wiring and battery wrap as well.

I really don't mind paying the shipping prices, but there's a lot of times hobbyking is missing some crucial items I need and I'll either have to wait or put in two orders. I've also seen a few times where hobbypartz gets really low on stock for most of their items.

 
ShaneDate: Wednesday, 2011-05-11, 3:35 PM | Message # 14
Group: Noob
Messages: 43
Status: Offline
Quote (fuzzywuzzy)
My aks74u is 400fps and just under 40rps And that's with a lower output 11.1v lipo, 18g wiring and tamiya connectors that I haven't gotten around to replacing. All three of which lower the rate of fire

Yeah......please don't fix them, lol
You probably need a beast electric mag or just use low caps for that gun to feed correctly, right?
Quote (AustinD)
hobbypartz.com
great lipos for mad cheap... good chargers too

Good to know! May buy from them to get an actual good charger
 
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